peacewish

Having said all that, I know you have to follow the American tradition of having to have happy endings, so I know you'll put them together. Which is why I like the original European movies better that the Hollywood remake, there's no quick "....and they lived happily after" I also get that there are lots of people who don't understand what a real relationship feels like.

Ah, hmm. I know my story provokes strong feelings in people, and that it can be easy to get carried away in reviews, but I really don't know how to feel about this comment. 50% of my audience has made it abundantly clear they want to see Jazz and Soundwave make it work, and 50% has been quite vocal for the opposite. I've known for a while that I'm not going to please everyone, whatever happens, but I really don't care for the sweeping generalization of what I'm likely to do because of the race I belong to, such as it is.

Leaving aside the stereotyping, I know writers like to have a Happily Ever After. That doesn't mean the HEA is quick - most certainly in a story now topping 50 chapters in length - or unsuitable. Sometimes people do get HEAs. Many people I know in my own life have HEAs, at least pending further developments. And having suffered through the last 7 years of what anyone could fairly call "a real relationship", complete with money squabbles, lifestyle choices, hurt feelings et al., I'm pleased to report that we stuck it out and are planning a wedding for next spring. So I don't know what she means when people say they don't know what a 'real' relationship feels like, unless they're so young they simply haven't been in one at all, because every relationship in this world is a real one.

It's just condescending and dismissive, and I really don't like it. This is part of a conversation that's been going back and forth for a few rounds now, but I'll elect to not respond at all rather than tell her I found her comments hurtful and offensive. Hence getting it off my chest here.

Current Mood: disappointed
Crossposts: http://peacewish.livejournal.com/275472.html

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From:

flyin_brick

Wow. That's a pretty crummy thing for them to say. I'm not sure what happened to the old adage "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all", but no one follows it in the Internet age.

I don't know if it's because they remain faceless, but I'm constantly surprised at how nasty people can be.

You don't have to be doing this. This story has obviously taken a lot of your time and energy, and the dismissive tone to that comment is just hackle-raising. I know I speak for a lot of folks when I say that I really appreciate your writing and this story (and I've been following the lj thread for about 4 or 5 years now). Thank you for putting yourself out there.

(Sorry...I don't usually post on complete strangers' blogs...but that sh*t got to me.)

From:

peacewish

No worries about replying - if I really don't want someone to comment on a thought-ramble of mine, I'll just disable comments completely. Honestly, I was wondering in my heart of hearts whether I was overreacting. So I'm a little relieved to hear you say that you thought it was out of line too.

I don't think she said it to be mean, though. After all, she's read this far into the story, so there must be something about it she likes. I think she was just talking and made a thoughtless remark. Lordy knows I've made plenty of my own across my life. For her own sake, though, I wish she knew how unbearably snotty it sounds when someone makes a comment like that.

From:

flyin_brick

I hear ya. I actually cringe quite a bit when I see someone commenting on a fic with unwarranted criticism or "you should do this". Save the critique for the writing workshops.

And it could have been just thoughtless talking, but that frustrates me too. I'm hyper aware about how I come across in writing, because the person or audience I'm speaking to isn't there to take social ques from my body language. (Now, lord knows I slip up IRL and when my mind is focused on something else I don't pay attention to people and come across harsh. But I'm conscious of and working on that.) I edit and reread posts before sending them out there.

Maybe that's just me. When I reply (which is hardly, thank you anxiety), I want to be positive and encouraging. Because hey, that's what I would want.

All of this aside, it did not register before, but congratulations on your engagement! That's exciting.

Edited Date: 2017-06-16 05:04 am (UTC)

From:

astraya973

Regarding the person who wrote "Which is why I like the original European movies better that the Hollywood remake, there's no quick "....and they lived happily after" I also get that there are lots of people who don't understand what a real relationship feels like.", ok ... that's a load of bulls****. Really. Sorry to say it, but.... IT IS.

1) REAL relationships run the gamut from 'Happily ever after' for the foreseeable future to 'hell' for the foreseeable future, and EVERYTHING in between, so to say a lot of people (implying the author) don't get what a real relationship feels like is just absurd. Human beings have relationships. In fact they're real human beings with real relationships. Just who the heck does the commenter think they are to decide what's a 'real' relationship, and assume themselves uniquely qualified to know how one feels. What are they assuming? OMNISCIENCE?? A few billion years of life to try all flavors of relationships? Telepathy, at least???

2) What's with the American vs. European thing. Hasn't that gotten OLD yet? What century is this person living in? Better, what PLANET?
Next thing, we'll have them telling us that Aeschylus, Euripides, Sophocles, Charles Dickens, Jayne Austen, etc were Americans just because they dared having happy endings (or at least hopeful ones) on a majority of their works – which by the way also managed to be, happy endings and all, extremely relevant CLASSICS which had a LOT to say about society's problems, and remain relevant and appreciated to this day. Gee, even the notoriously gloomy and darkly psychoanalytic Dostoevsky managed a few happy endings. What, are they going to tell me he's an American too? Also, have they actually been watching American cinema lately? It's to the point that killing characters because the scriptwriters can,is literally the new fad, usually made more distasteful by the moralistic righteousness it exudes.
Look at the fates of the few actually interesting characters around in say Charmed, SHIELD, etc. Not only do they kill off (it's usually worse than death) with glee anyone who dares be complex (and a bit flawed and dangerous and at their very best magnificent), but they usually do it after seasons of breaking them down more and more and more to the point of (usually isolation or grief fueled) madness, because every single other character scripted in with their self-proclaimed moral excellence is mercilessly breaks them down to being subhuman by treating them as if they are. The trend these days isn't happy endings. It's usually downright sadism. What century is the commenter talking from???

3) They really need to define what the heck is a “Happily ever after” that merits complaint, in this story, because such a notion really doesn't exist.
There are shades of happy in an ending.
Even if Jazz dies here (and I really hope he doesn't), it's a happier ending than if he died still a slave, with the other Autobots still slaves and the Matrix lost.
If he doesn't, no-one rational can assume it's going to be all roses and fluffy clouds. A heck of a lot of his friends (among them Optimus, who clearly meant a LOT to Jazz) are dead, and not coming back. The specter of Blaster is going to be hanging over Jazz and Soundwave for a very long time (the lost friend vs the mech Soundwave will always feel he has to compete with). Jazz has been in mission mode for so long that I doubt he's ever had the chance to properly grieve for everyone and everything he lost, and once he doesn't have a mission to keep him focused, it would be reasonable to think it's going to hit him. And that's saying nothing of the trauma he and the other Autobots have been though.
Even if Jazz and Soundwave both make it though the night, there's no smooth path obvious for them. They both love each other very much but in very different ways. Soundwave is possessive and seems literally unable to understand freedom, something that's understandable what with his own loyalty coding and the relationship with his cassettes. Jazz's first love IS freedom. He's never hid that. (It was funny seeing Soundwave sulking about a 'betrayal' that was not at all a betrayal when Jazz finally made a run for it) His first priority is the safety of those he considers his, the other Autobots (something Soundwave should at least get, exchanging cassetes for the Bots) and only after that comes in his personal relationships. And Soundwave is going to have to fundamentally work through a lot of that to even have a shot at anything lasting with a free Jazz who can literally smal th emetaphorical door in his face when he wants too. With Wave's loyalty coding broken, he might be able to, but even then, Megatron has been such a huge part of Soundwave's life that he's in for a nasty shock in loosing that figure.
Also, if Jazz and Soundwave survive the night, it's going to be a heck of a rocky road trying to recover from what they have said and done to each other in the past few hours. Soundwave leaving Jazz with Megatron, and later threatening to reclaim him, knowing that Jazz wants freedom more than anything. The music hack maybe, though Jazz might chalk that up to business. On the flipside, Jazz hurting Laserbeak and threatening to take her away, though since Beaky's unconscious and going to stay that way till fully repaired, it's Soundwave who was always the target and the one actually hurt, though it generates a particularly knotty problem for them if they have a future.

Happily ever after? Did actually even a handful of lines sink in? When do much has gone horribly wrong (and with a backdrop of a planet destroying civil war, slavery, tyranny, and the desperation that creates) the absolute best we can hope for is our characters to pick up the pieces, scars, wounds and all, and try to make a life that's worth living. Alone or together, it doesn't matter, because they'll always bee living with too many ghosts and memories and 'happily ever after' doesn't apply.

HAPILLY EVER AFTER would be say if we had a TIME-TRAVELLING Brainstorm (as in IDE comics) giving Jazz, say, a ride to the past so the Autobots could get to Soundwave first, his loyalty coding could fixate on Optimus, JazzWave would have had an actual shot at happily ever after, without all the ghosts between them, and since Soundwave's the only force of reason that stabilizes the Decepticons, they'd probably have imploded and the Autobots won by default. That would be a “happily ever after”. Someone needs to learn the difference!

P.S. I usually don't do this, commenting on other people's journals. So, uh, please feel free to delete if I'm being obtrusive. Admittedly I've not been here long enough to know what's proper DW behavior :-)

From:

peacewish

Well, that was very long winded! But I found the last part very intriguing, and re-read it several times. It was a very perceptive diagnosis of all the problems our heroes will be facing, even if the unlikely happens and they do end up together. There's been so much pain and hurt dealt by both sides, both Jazz and Soundwave the individuals and by their respective factions. If Soundwave tries to stay with Jazz, he'll also find himself facing the entire surviving Autobot army, who are not disposed to look kindly upon a top Decepticon officer just now. And that's not even counting what Soundwave will have to deal with from any surviving Decepticons. Plus there's all the friction developed between Jazz and his own faction.

That's not even half the problems, as you well know, just the starting set. So yes, there is no HEA here, there is only the Best They Could Manage, which may or may not be right but what else can one do? I will continue to work toward the ending that I want, bearing in mind all the conflict and inevitable compromises you've mentioned.